My Engine

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XUD Marine
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Re: My Engine

Post by XUD Marine » 06 Jul 2019, 20:35

Well it looks like that TDC sensor is a no-go, with no access through the bellhousing.
tdc03.jpg
That mystery hole lower down, the sensor does fit nicely in that, but the holder doesn't fit the two holes, also a few teeth showing there, wonder if it has a purpose.
tdc02.jpg
As for the cambelt, I don't have the new belt yet, but I made a start in preparation for getting it. I was able to get at the hole behind the starter.
flylock.jpg
A 6mm allen key was handy with its bend, though I ended up using the long end when I found TDC, it went in all the way. The front spocketes are locked in place with bolts and I got the bottom plasic cover off without removing the crank pulley. The crank pulley nut, using a long-arm socket made turning the engine into place easy. Loosening off the tensioner was not so easy, that spring is strong, but got there. I marked the belt, but left it on utill I get the replacement.

As that was as far as I could get with that, next I did what I thought would be an easy job, flush out the cooling system. It says to take off the thermostat cover and bung a hosepipe in, sounds easy.
The 4 bolts on the thermostat housing, man they were tight. Got the two on the right with the long-arm socket, but bruit force and ignorance on the bottom left bolt sheared it. The top left was also tricky as its surroundings meant you couldn't get the socket on, the small socket set (with a lot less leverage) could get part way on, but when you try that with a stuborn bolt you only make its head round. It eventually moved after hammering the socket on and pushing both ways until it decided to come loose, thought it would shear too. The one that did shear came out with stilsons.
I noticed the round bit that sticks out on the thermostat was a bit bent, not sure how, it may have been me strugging to pull the thing off that broken bolt. I straightened it out to best effect, but not sure how critical that is.
I didn't take the thermostat out, I didn't have circlip pliers quite big enough and it looked well rusted in.
I didn't put the cover back on due to shortage of bolts, didn't want to use the same old rusted up ones again and they are 7mm ones. I had a few 7mm left over from doing the sump, but only 3 are long enough. Think I'll try and get stainless, but 7mm is an odd size.

Also looked at making the engine beds, that slab of oak I've had a while wasn't as big as I seem to remember it once I dragged it out of the shed. They will be about 4 foot long in total to spread the weight on the hull, but because of the prop shaft angle they will be a wedge shape and quite deep at the front. It may still be possible with that wood if I don't use one solid lump each, but build from parts. The actual part the engine sits on only need be 2 foot.

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white exec
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Re: My Engine

Post by white exec » 06 Jul 2019, 20:58

I have memories of the 'stat housing bolts being tight and difficult to undo, first time round.
Stainless bolts (and a bit of copper grease) should do it.

To avoid rounding of stubborn bolts/nuts, hex (rather than the usual bi-hex) sockets work well. Impact (air wrench) sockets are usually hex.

Hopefully there won't be an issue with an angled engine (not sure how steep) — the oil pick-up is pretty much in the centre, end-to-end.

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Re: My Engine

Post by XUD Marine » 07 Jul 2019, 11:22

white exec wrote:
06 Jul 2019, 20:58
Stainless bolts (and a bit of copper grease) should do it.

I have been using stainless where I'm adding or replacing bolts, and copper grease where I will want them to move again, given the salt water factor.
white exec wrote:
06 Jul 2019, 20:58
Hopefully there won't be an issue with an angled engine (not sure how steep) — the oil pick-up is pretty much in the centre, end-to-end.

It's pretty standard on a boat to have an angled engine, though it's best to keep it to a minimum. Some gearboxes have an angled output to account for it. Mine has a drop below the crank axis, but is parallel, so the engine must be parallel to the shaft. I just measured the angle from the template and it says 11.5 degrees. The gearbox manual says it has a maximum working angle of 15deg, so I'm within that.

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Re: My Engine

Post by XUD Marine » 11 Jul 2019, 19:57

The new cambelt went on Monday and seeme to go OK. That tip with marking the belt to the sprockets helped, without it I would most likely have fitted it a tooth out.

I couldn't get 7mm stainless bolts, any 7mm ones are rare enough. I will have to make do with steel and copper grease.

I got some advice about the oil cooler. I do want the "pancake" type, a marine one would over-cool it.
Now because the XUD7 does not typically have the cooler, my thermostat housing does not have the outlet port that goes to it. I was told it's OK use use the outlet on the other side that goes to the heater.
It's not an immediate concern, but I did think that I would like the option in the future to put a heater in the cabin and would probably be better with it on a different hose loop to the oil cooler. Is it possible to modify the thermostat housing? I noticed what look like blanked holes.
Therm03.jpg
This one on the bottom of the cover.
Therm04.jpg
And these two on the side.
From what I have seen, on engines that have it, the pipe appears to come from the side. Is it an option to drill one of these holes out, or best to just use the heater port?
Having the separate heater loop would use up the extra inlet port at the water pump too, I seem to have more inlets than outlets.

The other question about oil coolers is which part.
I believe the correct part number is 1103G3, but I have seen a few other ones with 1103 numbers ending with a different letter and number that are for Peugeot/Citroen, but are they different fittings?

Eg, here is a used one with that part number:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Engine-Oil-C ... SwQLRbpSsK
Then here is one brand new and cheaper, but with a different number (1103N0), though it looks like it may fit the same:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OIL-COOLER-F ... 0033.m2042
...but is that for later models?

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white exec
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Re: My Engine

Post by white exec » 11 Jul 2019, 22:24

Have done a bit of searching for the two bits of oil cooler you'll need:
- pancake oil-water heat exchanger (oil cooler) (Citroen call it an Oil Water Distribution Chamber)
- tubular through-bolt (Citroen call it an Oil Filter Insert)

The above two need to be correctly matched, as both the cooler and the tubular bolt were made in a whole range of different sizes - thickness for the oil cooler, length for the through-bolt.

The common feature is an M20 thread, which is the same for the screw-on filter, the through-bolt, and the threaded hole in the engine block. M20 all the way.

Small detail: the thick rubber O-ring on the base of the oil filter is almost always the same size as the one under the cooler. Reason for this is so the block can accommodate oil filters with no cooler.

New parts?
Through bolts for the XUD engine (1.7/1.8/2088/2138) all seem NFP now, except one:
1103 E1 length=79.5mm


Have looked for an oil cooler which used this bolt, but can't find one still available on Cit.Parts.
Cooler 1103 A9 used it, but is NFP.
This through-bolt was used on the following Citroen vehicles (and a so lot of Peugeots too):
8 document(s) found for BX
2 document(s) found for C25
1 document(s) found for C5
1 document(s) found for C5 II
1 document(s) found for C6
1 document(s) found for C8
2 document(s) found for XANTIA
2 document(s) found for XANTIA II
2 document(s) found for XM
2 document(s) found for XM II
2 document(s) found for ZX


The oil coolers which were used on the XUD all seem to have had the two 16mm stubby water-pipes as a short parallel pair.
Not all of the vehicles listed above will have the parallel pipes. This might/might not matter.

If you are trawling Ebay etc for a cooler, then it is important to get the through-bolt that belongs to the cooler.

Paul (citroenxm) here may be able to help with a recovered cooler+bolt, likely from an XM 2.1.

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white exec
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Re: My Engine

Post by white exec » 12 Jul 2019, 18:07

Forgot, apologies -
You asked about where to plumb in the water side of the cooler...

On these engines, the oil cooler is usually fitted in parallel with the main radiator (i.e. across it), so the water pump is pushing coolant not just through the main rad, but through the oil cooler as well. (Important that the cooler goes in parallel with the rad, and not in series with it!)

Agree with you that it would probably not be a good idea to insert it into the heater circuit. Engine block/head and heater need to operate separately (by the thermostat) from everything else, so that the engine (and heater) warms up very quickly after starting.

One other thought occurs.
Pancake oil coolers are pretty reliable things - especially the steel pancake-type. However, if coolant quality has been neglected, these coolers (especially the bigger aluminium ones from Valeo, but some of the steel ones too) can corrode internally, and eventually perforate. This causes engine oil under pressure to be injected into the cooling system, and can pretty much bring the engine to a halt. On the road, this is a major annoyance, but at least the car is recoverable and repairable.
At sea, loss of engine power could be really serious, I'd guess. For that reason, I'd be cautious about fitting a secondhand oil cooler whose history is unknown.
You are the best judge of any risks involved.

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Re: My Engine

Post by XUD Marine » 12 Jul 2019, 20:50

Thanks for looking, very helpful.
It does get confusing looking for the right parts.
I found this other topic that lists different oil coolers for the XUD.
viewtopic.php?t=23995
AndersDK wrote:
17 May 2008, 16:02
From the BX, Xan & XM engines :
1103 A9 EP=56,6 - INDTIL OPR 05579
1103 C9 EP=47,6 - SIDEN OPR 05472
1103 A2 EP 66,3 - DIESEL TURBO XUD9TE
1103 G2 EP 56,6 - DIESEL TURBO XUD9SD INDTIL OPR 08007
1103 N1 EP 69,2 VALEO THERMIQUE - - DIESEL TURBO DW10 SIDEN OPR 08421
2L turbo - angled studs
1103 F7 - INJECTION TURBO XU10J2TE

A few part numbers to choose from.
You earlier said:-
white exec wrote:
30 Jun 2019, 20:56
The oil coolers for 1.7/1.9 (and 2.1) are interchangeable; either will do.
Fitted to a whole range of Cit/Peu engines.

So I suppose they all fit the same, just different size/capacity and requiring a different length bolt.
I did manage to find some of those numbers on Ebay (whenever I've asked a seller if one fits an XUD they always ask for a VIN which I don't have).
I found .A2, .N1 and .L2 from that list.
A lot seem to list later vehicles as compatible. Wiki says the XUD was produced between 1982 and 2001, and most cars listed on these are 1999 onward.
Though this one does mention the XUD9 and XUD11 from the 90s. Haynes says a cooler wasn't fitted to the XUD7, which explains why I don't have one, but one should fit.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Engine-Oil-C ... SwKmhckijr
The N1 ones seem a lot cheaper, is it they are more common/current or poorer material/quality?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CITROEN-BERL ... SwWwhc5~Bv

Regarding the route of the coolant to the cooler, it's a tricky one as I don't have the extra outlet port on my thermostat. In a basic set-up without a heater I think I would be OK with using the heater outlet, that's what I see on that turbo conversion and Lancing said it was OK like that, they are considered an authority on vehicle to marine conversions. Looking at the diagrams and system description, the heater outlet, on the manifold side at the flywheel end, is I think about the same point in the system as the thermostat, and just on the opposite side of the engine for convenience running hoses.

But my concern is running a long dual purpose hose circuit, with a hose from the engine to the cabin, through the heater, a hose back from the cabin to the engine and through the cooler...
Supposing there is a leak in my heater hose, I can close off that pipe to stop it and put a thicker jumper on. But if that also stops my oil cooler and overheats the engine, it's more serious. Eggs and baskets or separation of concerns.

To be honest, the heater is not a priority or a definite or imminent additon, just an idea for a luxury I may add in the future. I could rig it as is for now to get up and running (not had it running yet) and in future I could look at maybe getting a heater and alternative/modified thermostat housing with the extra outlet if I feel the need.

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Re: My Engine

Post by moizeau » 12 Jul 2019, 21:16

As Chris said, chop into the rad in and outs in parallel, you could even govern the flow by changing the diameter of the pipes.

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Re: My Engine

Post by white exec » 12 Jul 2019, 21:47

Long pipes (18-20mm bore) to a cabin heater shouldn't be a problem. Just give them some insulation, and some shut-off valves at the engine end (to cater for a leak).

If it holds the project up, you could simply omit the oil cooler for now, and add it later, when you find suitable parts.

That table giving thickness of coolers (EP dimension) is interesting. There were a whole variety of sizes of cooler (heaven knows why; presumably c/o the bean-counters), from several manufacturers. Most had the same dimensions, except depth. Steel ones seem to have a better reputation than aluminium ones, but failure is usually internal.

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Re: My Engine

Post by Little Grebe » 15 Jul 2019, 17:27

Hello,
I found this post very interesting as I have gone through some of the same questions.

I have a Saturn 25 sports cruiser built by a company called SJL in Norfolk, it is powered by a Peugeot XUD 7 built around 1990.
The engine was supplied by Peugeot Power, High Power Marine LTD, Norwich.

it is unusual but not unknown to fit a car type heater and most boats have a independent diesel heater.
I am about to upgrade the exhaust and change the can belt, I can recommend the Haynes Manuel as previously mentioned and the cooling system diagram within the post was useful, I wished I had it a year ago, thank you and I look forward to following this post.
Last edited by Little Grebe on 15 Jul 2019, 19:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Engine

Post by Little Grebe » 15 Jul 2019, 19:25

Hello, I will take some photos of the engine and cooling system layout if it would be of interest, thanks again for the information.

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white exec
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Re: My Engine

Post by white exec » 15 Jul 2019, 19:58

This has been an unusual and fascinating thread for us, not least the smurf blue.
Good to know that this highly successful engine found a marine role for itself.
Keep the photos and details coming!
Also a nice change to be able to thoroughly recommend Haynes as a good source of reference. Those were the days...

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Re: My Engine

Post by moizeau » 15 Jul 2019, 20:18

Seconded from here Chris. Another life after the corroded car. The heart out lives the body.

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Re: My Engine

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur » 15 Jul 2019, 22:33

just having a scan through this thread, can't see whether the 'Crankshaft Pulley Off' question has been answered or not....

as its an early engine you can take the bottom cover off by breaking it at the bottom, no need to remove the Crankshaft Pulley; was common practice in the day and the fittings are sufficient that the break is of no consequence, it'll refit ok.

I'm a bit (very 'bit') 'infrequent' here on the Forum of late, but I still run a 1.9 non-Turbo XUD in my 405 (only car), so feel free to PM me if there's anything partic that I might be able to help with; including with regard to the Cooling Ports, if that still needs answering. Its lined up for some serious spannering ASAP (could be a while nonetheless) so I'll be back!

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Re: My Engine

Post by NewcastleFalcon » 16 Jul 2019, 08:52

Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur wrote:
15 Jul 2019, 22:33
as its an early engine you can take the bottom cover off by breaking it at the bottom, no need to remove the Crankshaft Pulley; was common practice in the day and the fittings are sufficient that the break is of no consequence, it'll refit ok.
XUD Marine...I did resort to the a bit of precision surgery of the bottom plastic cover with a penknife to sidestep a stubborn crankshaft pulley bolt removal on an XUD. Its from some time ago so there may be better youtube vids than the one I included in my original post :)
NewcastleFalcon wrote:
09 Dec 2015, 19:34
You can usually find something on youtube. This gives some idea if what is involved may, altough the engine is out and access for tools is no problem. With the engine in situ, access is very restricted to removing some of the bolts, and you may have to be creative with your toolkit.



Key areas of difficulty may be removing the crankshaft pulley bolt. I never succeeded with mine, and ended up doing a bit of precision surgery on the plastic cambelt cover with a penknife to remove the cover. This allowed me to replace the belt without removing the crankshaft pulley.

Finding the hole to lock the flywheel is very much easier with the starter motor removed.
From experience I would always replace the water pump whether it needs replacing or not. A siezed water pump pulley can end up destroying the cambelt.


Regrds Neil

PS Congrats go to PUXA.....1000th post That gets you on the first step of the path to enlightenment in the CITROJIM series of coloured belts :-D
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So.. Blue for 1000 Posts, red for 2000 Posts, orange for 3000, yellow for 4000, green for 5000, purple for 6000, Purple and white for 7000, brown for 8000, brown and red for 9000 and for 10,000 black (Shodan) !!!
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