Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 » 13 Jul 2018, 12:12

Anyone know how far Harry and his missus went in the Jag before it needed to stop for a recharge?

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by harryp » 13 Jul 2018, 13:25

gibbo wrote:Anyone know how far Harry and his missus went in the Jag before it needed to stop for a recharge?]
I'll have to ask my grandson - he does the "look alike" videos 8-). :rofl2:
Regards, Harryp
Last edited by myglaren on 13 Jul 2018, 16:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake » 14 Jul 2018, 09:18

MikeT wrote:
13 Jul 2018, 09:36
Was kind of my point; only the affluent can afford EV's (which ideally requires it's own charging point and the private space to dock near it)
I'm not affluent! :roll: :lol:

You might as well say "only the affluent can afford brand new cars", and since EV's are generally new purchases at the moment as they haven't been around for long for much of a 2nd hand market to form, it then follows on to EV's. Not many people are willing to take a punt on an older second hand EV at the moment due to fears over the technology being new and unproven, expensive to fix, or fears about battery longevity.

And there are some grounds for some of those fears - the oldest modern EV's are still only 7 years old - how well will they last when they are 10, 15 years old ? Nobody really knows as they have no track record at that age so we are navigating uncharted waters. The big question mark is the batteries, with some EV's batteries lasting extremely well (Tesla) and some lasting rather poorly (Leaf) with many in between. Only time will tell.

What we do know so far is that those that use active battery temperature management are lasting better than those that don't, and of those using temperature management, liquid (glycol) cooled systems are lasting the best. So that will be something to look for in years to come when considering 2nd hand EV's and which are likely to last better.

If you're willing to take a punt on a 2nd hand EV some of them are not that expensive and there are some bargains to be found. I paid £4200 for my Ion - at the time I bought it it was 6 years old and had only done 28k miles. For a car the size of a C1 I think this is pretty decent pricing considering how ridiculously expensive they were when new, and given the relative rarity of the car. (less than 1000 in the UK in it's three different badge guises)

Going from 28p/mile on the Xantia to 3p/mile on the Ion (just for petrol vs electricity) is such a huge drop in my commuting costs that even while we're paying off the personal loan to buy the car and keeping the Xantia MOT'ed and insured at the same time for the occasional times it gets driven, we're still about £150 better off in the pocket every month.

So effectively the car is not costing us anything to buy, on a monthly basis it is actually saving us money. Of course that is with our very specific circumstances where we have a 38 mile a day commute, can do most of our driving in the smaller, shorter range car, still have the ICE for longer journeys etc...

Give it a few more years for the second hand EV market to start to flourish and it will start to make sense to a lot more people at least as a 2nd car.

Funny thing is I bought the Ion as the 2nd car but in reality it's the Xantia that became the 2nd car - because it's eye wateringly more expensive to drive the Xantia than the Ion we don't drive it unless we have to!

Regarding the home charging point - at the moment OLEV will subsidise the cost of an installation by £500 UK wide meaning that you would typically end up paying about £200 for an installation - and once you have that installed it can be used with any future EV you might own, so it's not like you're paying for an installation every time you buy an EV.

In Scotland EST will provide a further subsidy up to £500 on top of OLEV meaning that in Scotland charge point installation is basically free - I didn't pay anything to have mine installed.

I do agree about the problem of lack of off street parking though - I do have off street parking as that was a major consideration when we were looking to buy a house, however a lot of people don't have that.

The concerns about battery size/range, cost and charging times of current EV's are all very real however I have full confidence that these problems will be solved within the next 10 years, however I do worry that the issue of lack of off street parking is basically an intractable problem as its a civil engineering problem not a problem with EV technology.

I'm honestly not sure what is going to happen there - most likely eventually EV's will get a large enough range and rapid charge quickly enough that people without home charging will be able to do a 30 minute top up once a week similar to what they might do now with petrol, but perhaps while they are doing the weekly shop.

But people without home or work charging will be permanently disadvantaged as it is both more convenient and cheaper to charge at home, it's a major benefit of driving an EV. Charging at home costs me 3p/mile, if I was to charge purely using rapid chargers at 25-35p/kWh it would make my costs more like 8p/mile - still cheaper than diesel but not by a lot.
I also believe manufacturers are dragging their heels as there's far less profit in EV's, especially when it comes to after-sales and maintenance.
This is absolutely true. All existing ICE manufacturers are dragging their heels because EV's will (eventually) cannibalise their more profitable ICE sales, and most likely cause job losses as well in places like engine development facilities.

That's why some high profile EV only manufacturers like Tesla who have no investment in ICE technology are needed to keep the other manufacturers feet to the fire. It can't all be about government regulations forcing manufacturers to do something they don't want to that hurts their bottom line, they need to be out competed on a level playing field as well.
I am not convinced our government are commited to the industry either. They still believe diesels engines are the best option regards CO2.
I get mixed signals from the UK government, I sometimes think they are just giving lip service to CO2/pollution accords. The Scottish government on the other hand is fully behind EV's.
I do wonder if private-use EV's are really just a fad niche market and other more affordable innovations will take the market away from them in short order.

Such as ? Hovercars ? :-D (I'm still waiting for my flying car that was promised decades ago)

EV's are here to stay, and are getting better extremely rapidly. We're just one major battery technology breakthrough away from the internal combustion engine being taken out to pasture. And there are a lot of very smart people working very hard on finding that battery breakthrough.

I think once the transition is largely over we'll look back and think how quaint internal combustion engines spewing out fumes and noise were and just how noisy our cities were... :)

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT » 14 Jul 2018, 14:31

Mandrake wrote:
14 Jul 2018, 09:18
MikeT wrote:
13 Jul 2018, 09:36
Was kind of my point; only the affluent can afford EV's (which ideally requires it's own charging point and the private space to dock near it)
I'm not affluent! :roll: :lol:

You might as well say "only the affluent can afford brand new cars", and since EV's are generally new purchases at the moment as they haven't been around for long for much of a 2nd hand market to form, it then follows on to EV's. Not many people are willing to take a punt on an older second hand EV at the moment due to fears over the technology being new and unproven, expensive to fix, or fears about battery longevity.

And there are some grounds for some of those fears - the oldest modern EV's are still only 7 years old - how well will they last when they are 10, 15 years old ? Nobody really knows as they have no track record at that age so we are navigating uncharted waters. The big question mark is the batteries, with some EV's batteries lasting extremely well (Tesla) and some lasting rather poorly (Leaf) with many in between. Only time will tell.

What we do know so far is that those that use active battery temperature management are lasting better than those that don't, and of those using temperature management, liquid (glycol) cooled systems are lasting the best. So that will be something to look for in years to come when considering 2nd hand EV's and which are likely to last better.

If you're willing to take a punt on a 2nd hand EV some of them are not that expensive and there are some bargains to be found. I paid £4200 for my Ion - at the time I bought it it was 6 years old and had only done 28k miles. For a car the size of a C1 I think this is pretty decent pricing considering how ridiculously expensive they were when new, and given the relative rarity of the car. (less than 1000 in the UK in it's three different badge guises)

Going from 28p/mile on the Xantia to 3p/mile on the Ion (just for petrol vs electricity) is such a huge drop in my commuting costs that even while we're paying off the personal loan to buy the car and keeping the Xantia MOT'ed and insured at the same time for the occasional times it gets driven, we're still about £150 better off in the pocket every month.

So effectively the car is not costing us anything to buy, on a monthly basis it is actually saving us money. Of course that is with our very specific circumstances where we have a 38 mile a day commute, can do most of our driving in the smaller, shorter range car, still have the ICE for longer journeys etc...

Give it a few more years for the second hand EV market to start to flourish and it will start to make sense to a lot more people at least as a 2nd car.

Funny thing is I bought the Ion as the 2nd car but in reality it's the Xantia that became the 2nd car - because it's eye wateringly more expensive to drive the Xantia than the Ion we don't drive it unless we have to!

Regarding the home charging point - at the moment OLEV will subsidise the cost of an installation by £500 UK wide meaning that you would typically end up paying about £200 for an installation - and once you have that installed it can be used with any future EV you might own, so it's not like you're paying for an installation every time you buy an EV.

In Scotland EST will provide a further subsidy up to £500 on top of OLEV meaning that in Scotland charge point installation is basically free - I didn't pay anything to have mine installed.

I do agree about the problem of lack of off street parking though - I do have off street parking as that was a major consideration when we were looking to buy a house, however a lot of people don't have that.

The concerns about battery size/range, cost and charging times of current EV's are all very real however I have full confidence that these problems will be solved within the next 10 years, however I do worry that the issue of lack of off street parking is basically an intractable problem as its a civil engineering problem not a problem with EV technology.

I'm honestly not sure what is going to happen there - most likely eventually EV's will get a large enough range and rapid charge quickly enough that people without home charging will be able to do a 30 minute top up once a week similar to what they might do now with petrol, but perhaps while they are doing the weekly shop.

But people without home or work charging will be permanently disadvantaged as it is both more convenient and cheaper to charge at home, it's a major benefit of driving an EV. Charging at home costs me 3p/mile, if I was to charge purely using rapid chargers at 25-35p/kWh it would make my costs more like 8p/mile - still cheaper than diesel but not by a lot.
I also believe manufacturers are dragging their heels as there's far less profit in EV's, especially when it comes to after-sales and maintenance.
This is absolutely true. All existing ICE manufacturers are dragging their heels because EV's will (eventually) cannibalise their more profitable ICE sales, and most likely cause job losses as well in places like engine development facilities.

That's why some high profile EV only manufacturers like Tesla who have no investment in ICE technology are needed to keep the other manufacturers feet to the fire. It can't all be about government regulations forcing manufacturers to do something they don't want to that hurts their bottom line, they need to be out competed on a level playing field as well.
I am not convinced our government are commited to the industry either. They still believe diesels engines are the best option regards CO2.
I get mixed signals from the UK government, I sometimes think they are just giving lip service to CO2/pollution accords. The Scottish government on the other hand is fully behind EV's.
I do wonder if private-use EV's are really just a fad niche market and other more affordable innovations will take the market away from them in short order.

Such as ? Hovercars ? :-D (I'm still waiting for my flying car that was promised decades ago)

EV's are here to stay, and are getting better extremely rapidly. We're just one major battery technology breakthrough away from the internal combustion engine being taken out to pasture. And there are a lot of very smart people working very hard on finding that battery breakthrough.

I think once the transition is largely over we'll look back and think how quaint internal combustion engines spewing out fumes and noise were and just how noisy our cities were... :)


The impression I'm getting is that individual car use/ownership will largely become a thing of the past (or more cynincally, only for the mega rich). I too still anticipate my own flying car/multicopter (maybe after I get the ultra-fast broadband and 5G access I was promised?) but the reality is less people are learning to drive, able to afford cars (let alone homes with dedicated parking) and are using uber taxis, car sharing, public transport, bicycles, walking etc and in the future will be using automated transport services.

But as mentioned before, banning sales of new conventional ICE engines by 2040 and achieving (mostly) zero-emissions vehicles by 2050 is only a mission at this point. The more realisitc current short-term plan is to incentivise and encourage uptake of ultra-low emissions vehicles, mostly within industry. This is where the conventional industries will be focusing, imo.

As for the governements immediate vision and grant funding to see the nation peppered with chargepoints "on every lampost" and within on-street parking areas, surely it will reduce parking for non-EV's even further than they are now? Maybe it's different where you are Simon, as you say you were able to afford off-street parking but in this conurbation, parking's a hot topic often mentioned in the local papers and among my neighbours as most new builds going up have sparse parking facilities, if at all, and the council is selling off town car parks to developers hand-over-fist.

The current government are big on privatisation and I predict this is the start of handing over our road infrastructure. I'll be reading their papers on "mobility" next to see if I'm right.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake » 15 Jul 2018, 00:27

MikeT wrote:
14 Jul 2018, 14:31
The impression I'm getting is that individual car use/ownership will largely become a thing of the past (or more cynincally, only for the mega rich). I too still anticipate my own flying car/multicopter (maybe after I get the ultra-fast broadband and 5G access I was promised?) but the reality is less people are learning to drive, able to afford cars (let alone homes with dedicated parking) and are using uber taxis, car sharing, public transport, bicycles, walking etc and in the future will be using automated transport services.
The UK already has a low percentage of drivers compared to some other countries, I think partly due to a generally good public transport system, a shortage of parking outside terraced housing, very high insurance costs, (especially for under 25's) and very expensive fuel.

Coming from New Zealand the difference is quite stark - almost everybody drives a car in New Zealand. Very, very few households have no car, pretty much only those on the poverty line, and it's not for lack of wanting one.

There, if someone doesn't have a drivers license by the time they're 18 and a car by the time they're 20 you'd think them a bit strange, (I got mine at 15...) and they will be seriously disadvantaged in life due to the relatively poor public transport.

If you want to get to your work and get around in general you need a car. Every teen to 20 something wants a car and most will get one. Insurance is not compulsory, nor is it expensive. Second hand cars are more expensive than the UK and hold their value much better but fuel costs are significantly lower. Nearly all properties have off street parking and a large percentage have garages that will actually (gasp!) fit a car inside and still allow you to open the doors to get out. :lol:

Totally different situation here in the UK where a large percentage of people don't drive, don't want to drive, can't afford to drive or don't have anywhere to keep a car.

The USA is generally similar to New Zealand in this regard I think - apart from a couple of large metropolitan areas like New York where nobody wants to own a car, (similar to London) elsewhere in the USA everyone wants and has a car and I think you will only get rid of private car ownership by prying it out of their cold dead hands...

So while I fully believe the transition to EV's will happen, I'm very skeptical about the transition from private car ownership to shared car ownership, self driving cars that drive themselves to you when you need a car to use etc...

There is just something tangible about owning your own car and having it where you want it, when you want it, with your stuff in it (including your child seats etc) that won't be replaced by car on demand.
But as mentioned before, banning sales of new conventional ICE engines by 2040 and achieving (mostly) zero-emissions vehicles by 2050 is only a mission at this point. The more realisitc current short-term plan is to incentivise and encourage uptake of ultra-low emissions vehicles, mostly within industry. This is where the conventional industries will be focusing, imo.
I've said it before, but I think the UK governments 2040 target is pretty feeble really, because I firmly believe that EV's will improve sufficiently rapidly that normal market forces will make sales of EV's dominate before 2040 anyway. In that sense the 2040 target is an "empty threat" because it's so far away that what it is saying must happen will probably happen naturally before then anyway.
As for the governements immediate vision and grant funding to see the nation peppered with chargepoints "on every lampost" and within on-street parking areas, surely it will reduce parking for non-EV's even further than they are now?
Personally I can't see charge points on lamp posts being viable. As far as I know, none of the pilot programs makes spaces next to lamp post chargers reserved for EV's - anyone can still park there with any kind of car, because nobody "owns" the space on the road in front of their property.

That means if someone else parks in the spaces where the lamp post chargers are and you can't you're kinda stuffed. That kind of day to day uncertainty would really tick me off and I wouldn't want to rely on it. I really do think lack of off street parking is the single biggest impediment to EV adoption in the UK, at least until EV range gets really long and rapid charging speeds get very high so that the car becomes usable in the ICE "fill up weekly" model instead of the charge at home daily model.
Maybe it's different where you are Simon, as you say you were able to afford off-street parking but in this conurbation, parking's a hot topic often mentioned in the local papers and among my neighbours as most new builds going up have sparse parking facilities, if at all, and the council is selling off town car parks to developers hand-over-fist.
If new builds are going in that don't have adequate parking that's something that the government really needs to look into. I can understand old builds lacking in parking that predate today's prevalence of cars but there's no excuse for the same thing to happen with new builds.

We managed to find a 1930's fully detached on a corner with a driveway and garage for a reasonable price, but the payoff was that the house and property is something of a "fixer upper", and 3 years later we're still doing the fixing up and kinda regretting it as the fixing up is like a second full time job that gobbles up a lot of spare time and money... :(

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 » 15 Jul 2018, 10:37

I suppose adding charging points to pay and display roadside parking meters might be an idea for cities like Gloucester who seem to have every bit of the roadside metered. :(

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon » 23 Jul 2018, 20:29

For a short time in the late 50's and early 60's the humble "bubble car" met a need and sold across the world in their hundreds of thousands. BMW produced 30,000 of them between 1959 and 1964 at their factory in Brighton.

The Mini came along and the bubble car naturally expired.

Seeing as its Bubble Car Day (for me if no-one else :-D ) this proposal from a Swiss Firm from 2016 with 500 orders in the bag, and a production target of 2018 captured my interest. The real electric mini hasn't arrived yet in terms of a game changing electric vehicle which is affordable to the masses.

Not to say that their proposed bubble car is cheap, but they may sell a few if they ever get round to production, to fill the period before the genuinely mass market ev's arrive.
Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon » 23 Jul 2018, 21:52

In Action!


Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon » 23 Jul 2018, 21:58

go on its bubble car day after all autoplay on!



Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake » 30 Oct 2018, 11:34

Mandrake wrote:
24 Jun 2018, 19:59
Previous Pikes peak overall record (previously set by none other than Sebastian Loeb in 2013 in a Peugeot 208 T16, which is a very fast car - I've watched his pikes peak run) just smashed by a VW electric car:

https://electrek.co/2018/06/24/vw-all-e ... ill-climb/

They were aiming to beat the previous electric car record but beat the overall record as well on their first try.

By the way anyone worrying about electric racing being silent, watch that thing zoom by in the short video clip - it sounds like a jet engine flying about 30 feet above ground. While it certainly doesn't sound like an ICE, it has a sound of its own. :)

Not sure why it took them so long to edit and publish the video (4 months! :lol: ) but fully charged have just put up a great video on the Pikes peak record breaking VW ID EV here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7zM0BDM2Vc

Well worth a watch if you like Pikes Peak, EV racing, or both! :)

Also came across this article on the same car:

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/id-r/first-drive

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 » 30 Oct 2018, 13:00


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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec » 30 Oct 2018, 17:04

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
23 Jul 2018, 20:29
Image
And the spec...
Top Speed: 90 km/h (55 mph)
Energy: LiFePO4, 8kW/h to 14.4 kW/h
Torque: 110 Nm (81 lb ft)
Range: 120 to 215 km ( ~ 75 to 134 miles)
Dry Weight: 450 kg (992 lbs)

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/08/th ... ty-answer/

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon » 30 Oct 2018, 19:54



Headline is...."British car wins 2018 German Car of the Year" although Autocar reckon its COTY 2019 in Germany.

You would expect nothing less, after all "We are leading the world in the development of electric vehicles" (T.May PMQ's Wednesday November 1st 2017)

But in the world of automobile development and manufacture how British is the Jaguar I-Pace.?

Jaguar has been 100% owned since 2008 by TATA Motors Limited headquartered in Mumbai, an Indian multinational automotive manufacturing company and a member of the Tata Group.

Where is the I-Pace Assembled?

Currently Austria by Magna Steyr in Graz. Highly likely if they haven't started already, to be followed by assembly in China.

Who led the design?

Ian Callum from Dumfries, Scotland

Where do the components come from?

Obviously these days the bits to make it come from all over the place The Battery/ies come from LG Chem (South Korea)

Would be nice if there was even a slim chance that the UK would get the benefit of the good work of the design team, and conditions were favourable to assembly in the UK.

Meaningless soundbites and no action are unlikely to make that happen.

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake » 12 Nov 2018, 09:58


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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec » 12 Nov 2018, 12:53

Finally! Good news, though.