Electric Cars:what's available?

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

mickthemaverick wrote:
14 Feb 2020, 10:24
As for relatives using the western route Neil I should imagine it is to enjoy the Cumbrian section which is IMO the prettiest motorway route in England!! :)
No alfresco dining at Leicester Forest east though :-D

Image

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by bobins »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
14 Feb 2020, 09:55


..........Possibly only true for those who like to drive 5 hours at 70mph or more without stopping.


REgards Neil

That's exactly my preferred method of getting from A to B if it involves any great distance :-D

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
14 Feb 2020, 09:55
KIA e-Niro from Oxfordshire to Edinburgh

REgards Neil
The Kona Electric was easily up to it and would have managed it with two rapid charges each way (which take the battery to 80 percent in rapid mode, rather than 100). It was a near disaster because six of the eight Ecotricity DC rapid chargers I stopped at during the entire 690 mile round trip, didn’t work.
I know it sounds like I like to bash Ecotricty and their near stranglehold on motorway services, but this is exactly why.

The e-Niro is a CCS car and while Ecotricity is unreliable and poorly maintained in general, their CCS connectors in particular are extremely unreliable to the point where there seems to be some incompatibility with many cars, including the BMW i3 and the Kona and e-Niro. In short, they just don't work properly and aren't fit for purpose, and all the more experienced EV drivers who own CCS compatible cars know this and avoid Ecotricity like the plague.

Ecotricity installed the very first rapid charging network in the UK way back around 2013(ish) and they should be congratulated for that - before that long distance EV travel was impossible in the UK and they made it possible. But for many years now they have been hindering rather than helping the adoption of EV's by letting their network languish with old, unreliable hardware, and their exclusive deals blocking other competitors from coming to motorway services.

Yes there are Tesla superchargers at some motorway services but Tesla had to "play dirty" to do this and there was a long bitter court battle between Tesla and Ecotricity that resulted in an undisclosed payout from Tesla to stay after they had basically back stabbed Ecotricity to get in. Tesla had the clout to do this however the smaller charging providers that compete one on one with Ecotricity have not been able to or have not wanted to take them on in court.

How long until the government steps in to bust the Ecotricity "exclusive" deal with motorway services ? The new 2035 target simply wont happen unless Ecotricity is ousted from its prime real estate and competition is allowed. I think this is one of those situations where the government genuinely does need to step in on behalf of the car driving public and say "ok, you had your chance and blew it".

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I cannot speak for the reliability (or otherwise) of Ecotricity, but they do have a large wind turbine on the south of Reading (near J11 on the M4).

https://www.greenpark.co.uk/wildlife-en ... or-center/

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Well Carlos Ghosn in his pomp back in 2013 said
"Obviously we are helping with demand by lowering the cost of electric cars and by signing agreements with cities across the world for electric cars."

"As cities get charging stations more people are going to come, and of course the cost of the cars will come down too. So there is nothing that forbids an electric Dacia car in the future. The day there is demand, of course, we will be able to produce it."

"Mark my words, in time they are all going to come to it. You cannot continue to prosper in this industry without electric cars and plug-in hybrids. Yes I am bullish about electric cars. In 2020, in this market , I believe 10 per cent of the market will be electric cars."
Well Inside EV's reports that Renault Confirms Affordable Dacia EV Will Arrive In 2021 - 2022

It is expected to be a rebrand of the Renault City K-ZE currently made in China and expected to undercut the VW triplets. Plenty pics on the Inside EV article including a mock up of a Dacia branded version in a lovely shade of green :!: :-D

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by white exec »

I think Vauxhall might owe us (and maybe the Advertising Standards Authority) an explanation of how these claimed figures were actually calculated . . .
Grandland-X hybrid ad.JPG
for a 1.6L petrol engine, with a "up to" 35 miles battery range.

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/grandland-x/hybrid.html

Maybe a leisurely 36-mile journey?

The reference to "full charge in under 2 hours" is also intended not to be looked at too closely, I guess.
Why bother with anything that takes much longer, folks?

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by mickthemaverick »

white exec wrote:
18 Feb 2020, 18:19
I think Vauxhall might owe us (and maybe the Advertising Standards Authority) an explanation of how these claimed figures were actually calculated . . .

I found this reference at the very bottom of the ad your link took me to Chris:

"4 Fuel consumption and CO2-emission data given are preliminary and have been determined according to WLTP test procedure methodology, and the relevant values are translated back into NEDC to allow the comparability with other vehicles, according to regulations R (EC) No. 715/2007, R (EU) No. 2017/1153 and R (EU) No. 2017/1151. EG type approval and Certificate of Conformity are not yet available. The preliminary values might differ from official final type approval data."

It might as well have read " We found a way to make the figures look fantastic in the hope that nobody would read this bit!!"

:)

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by bobins »

Those figures aren't that impressive, my hairdryer will do 300mpg if it's towed behind another vehicle

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by mickthemaverick »

Is that with or without rollers bobins? :-D

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bobins
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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by bobins »

The secret is to use the hydrogen peroxide from the hair bleach as a rocket propellent :-D

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by mickthemaverick »

:rofl2:

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by myglaren »

white exec wrote:
18 Feb 2020, 18:19
I think Vauxhall might owe us (and maybe the Advertising Standards Authority) an explanation of how these claimed figures were actually calculated . . .

Image

for a 1.6L petrol engine, with a "up to" 35 miles battery range.

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/grandland-x/hybrid.html

Maybe a leisurely 36-mile journey?

The reference to "full charge in under 2 hours" is also intended not to be looked at too closely, I guess.
Why bother with anything that takes much longer, folks?
I caught a bit of that on Classic FM earlier - not which car as I generally ignore adverts or turn the damned noise off but did hear "204 MPG".
Need to buy more salt.

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white exec
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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by white exec »

Heard it there, too, Steve - several times today.

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by RichardW »

Determining PHEV fuel and electric energy consumption in WLTP

(note CD=Charge Depleting i.e. running on electric only; CS=Charge sustaining i.e battery at min level and running on ICE + regeneration energy only)

After the vehicle has been preconditioned by driving at least one WLTC cycle, the
battery is charged to the maximum SOC level while the vehicle is soaked in a
climate-controlled area at 23°C (Figure 4). The vehicle is tested over multiple WLTC
test cycles, until the test break-off criterion is reached, that is, the net energy
change of the battery from the start to the end of the test cycle is less than 4 % of the
cycle energy at the wheels. The cycle in which this criterion is fulfilled is referred
to as the confirmation cycle (n+1), whereas, in the previous cycle, the transition from
CD to CS operation is considered to have taken place; hence, it is called the
transition cycle (n). After a maximum of 120 minutes, the battery is recharged to the
maximum SOC level to determine the charge energy, EAC.
Figure 4.JPG
Figure 4: Schematic overview of CD mode test procedure in WLTP.

Calculation of the average weighted fuel consumption, C, in WLTP is done according
to the following formula:
C = UF .C1 + (1 – UF) .C2
Where:
C = weighted fuel consumption in liters per 100 kilometers;
C1 = fuel consumption in liters per 100 kilometers in CD mode;
C2 = fuel consumption in liters per 100 kilometer in CS mode; and
UF = utility factor as a function of the electric range RCDC, defined as the distance
driven up to and including the transition cycle

The energy consumption, EC (in Wh/km), follows from dividing the recharged energy,
EAC, by the equivalent all-electric range, EAER.
EC.JPG
EC.JPG (8.42 KiB) Viewed 72 times
The EAER is determined by taking the total driven distance up to and including the
transition cycle, n, and subtracting the parts during which the combustion engine
was in operation. Calculation of this engine operation share is based on comparing
the CO2 mass emissions for the CS cycle with the average emissions during the cycles
driven in CD mode, as follows:
eaer.JPG
eaer.JPG (10.4 KiB) Viewed 72 times
Where:
RCDC = the CD range up to and including the transition cycle n (in km),
MCO2,CS = the CS CO2 mass emission (in g/km), and
MCO2,CD,avg = the arithmetic average CO2 mass emission of the CD test (in g/km).
The actual CD range, RCDA (in km), is calculated by summing the distances driven up
until the cycle preceding the transition cycle, and performing a CO2-based linear
interpolation during the transition cycle to establish the transition point from CD to
CS mode, as follows:
rcda.JPG
rcda.JPG (11.55 KiB) Viewed 72 times
Where:
MCO2, CS = the CS CO2 mass emission (in g/km);
MCO2,n,cycle = the CO2 mass emission during the transition cycle, n (in g/km);
MCO2,CD,avg, n-1 = the arithmetic average CO2 mass emission of the CD test from the
beginning up to and including test cycle, n–1 (in g/km);
dc = the distance driven during test cycle, c, of the CD test (in km); and
dn = the distance driven during transition cycle, n, of the CD test (in km).

Simples :rofl2: basically the MPG is make believe, and bears no relation to any real driving cycle, and is not really comparable to pure ICE MPG. Really they should quote the electric range, and then the MPG once the battery is depleted as separate numbers which will allow people to have a better idea of what they will get over their own use cycle. Our friends had an Outlander PHEV that was 130 MPG or something daft on the old average cycle, but in reality returned little better than 30mpg average over a 'normal' useage pattern (and that included them having it plugged in!).

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by white exec »

RichardW wrote:
18 Feb 2020, 21:17
Determining PHEV fuel and electric energy consumption in WLTP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . #-o

Simples :rofl2: Basically the MPG is make believe, and bears no relation to any real driving cycle, and is not really comparable to pure ICE MPG. Really they should quote the electric range, and then the MPG once the battery is depleted as separate numbers which will allow people to have a better idea of what they will get over their own use cycle. Our friends had an Outlander PHEV that was 130 MPG or something daft on the old average cycle, but in reality returned little better than 30mpg average over a 'normal' usage pattern (and that included them having it plugged in!).
Wow! Thanks, Richard.

Your last paragraph says it all, and shines a light on the deliberate obfuscation - and downright misleading marketing figures.

These are essentially petrol vehicles, with a very small amount of added electric propulsion, itself capable of very small journeys. Fine if that's all/what the owners does, but otherwise they're ICE. In the worst cases — PHEVs which are never plugged in (and a good bit of evidence for that now), and "self-charging" hybrids (where the charging largely comes from the petrol engine) — these vehicles are just ICE, but with an additional weight handicap.

I don't think any of us expected ICE vehicles to get sold this way. Toyota started this kind of misleading stuff (with the Prius), and Mitsubishi copied it (with Outlander PHEV). Fortunately, planning, tax and revenue departments are starting to see through it.